This and That - Isles Acquire Ben Walter
In the blockbuster move of the summer, the Isles traded away former first round pick Petteri Nokelainen for Ben Walter, the MVP of the AHL's Providence Bruins. At first glance, one might note that Walter was a fifth round pick, and it seems odd that a former fifth rounder would be traded for a former first rounder. But the key word is “former.” Anyone who knows a thing or two about drafting knows how hard it is to project how a player will develop on draft day. Each of these players was drafted in 2004, but have followed very different paths over the past few years.
Nokelainen has been plagued by knee injuries (he might still be hurt) and has never found a consistent offensive game in North America when healthy. However, since both he and Walter played full seasons in the AHL last season, we could start by comparing the seasons each player had last year.
Nokelainen played 60 games, with 6 goals and 10 assists, and a -11 +/- last season. Walter on the other hand, played 73 games, with 24 goals and 43 assists, and a +23 +/- last season. So there goes the argument that we got robbed by sending a first rounder for a fifth rounder. It’s the AHL granted, but Walter outscored Nokie by 51 points and had better +/- by 34. That is quite a substantial difference. Also, Walter was the leader, the MVP of his AHL club, while Nokie was more of the spare part in Bridgeport. I'm not sure what Snow knows that we don't, but on paper it sure looks like a pretty ok deal to me.
Walter is probably a better prospect than Ryan O'marra (who was a similar player) ever was, and probably will help the Isles more than Nokie ever could. Blockbuster? No not quite. But seems to work well and maybe, just maybe, Walter can crack the lineup in a year or two.
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43 comments:
OK, then answer me this. Why in the world would you trade a player who
scored 50 more points and was the MVP of his team AND throw in a second round pick?
Is Boston that stupid?....BILL
"Is Boston that stupid?....BILL"
Why not? Milbury would've been:)..LOL
I read it was one of those "Getting a fresh start" moves.
In the end, it probably won't matter anyway as it was a minor swap at best.
The 2nd round pick is conditional and I'm not sure what the conditions are.
-Frank
A public service announcement for those who read this blog: the word 'gypped" is actually a derogatory term referencing stereotypical "gypsy" behavior. "Gypsy" is a term (still to this day) used to describe various ethnic and cultural groups in southeast Europeans. I personally don't take offense, but you asked us to avoid using expletives in our posts, and this seems marginally worse.
But, not many people know it's a derogatory term, hence the PSA. **The more you know...**
Re: the trade, I like it. Slightly older, bigger, better professional hockey statistics (as opposed to draft-day potential). Otherwise, no biggie- we won't see Walter much, and we weren't going to see Nokie this year.
Bill- it's a good question, but maybe it was something personal the guy did whilst in the AHL. All speculation though, and I'll assume it was simple a change of scenery...actually a courtesy to the players.
Thanks for the note. That particular word is the U.S. is more of a elementary way to say cheated or robbed, but I understand it might be viewed as derogatory to some. (But how many Gypsies are reading about the Isles????) so I might be in the clear. However I have removed the word from my post.
Ben Walter Calder Winner 2008
I think this was a case of Boston being stocked with centers and needing a winger and vice versa here.
I don't see this as a minor trade. I think that Walter should be given every chance to make the team and actually play.
He lit up the AHL and he is 23 years old. What would sending him down again accomplish? He deserves a shot with the big club.
Otherwise, what was the point? Noke is only 20 and could have played a year or two more in the AHL.
Walter has nothing left to prove at the AHL level and at 23 years
old he should be playing in the NHL.
Just on the surface, I think that if Walter can step in and play the way he has in the past, then Snow made the first smart move of his stewardship.............Bill
I really hope Nolan has recovered from his flawed "I only play veterans" mindset. Would Nolan give Walter a shot, even if he outplayed Hilbert, or Park, or Bates in training camp? I'm not quite sure, but last year he would not.
But adding a good 2 way guy who can score is a great move by Snow. Should Vasicek falter or Sillinger become injured, Walter would be a much better replacement than the Mapletofts, Papineaus, Bogunieckis, and Wyatt Smiths of the past...
Justin, It sure would be refreshing to see Walter, Bergy and Tambellini in the opening night line up.
That would give me some hope for this season....Bill
PS What's Garth doing with his extra 10 million?
Markov, anyone?
It seems like a good fit. But that would leave the Isles with another defenseman with a 1 way contract and nowhere to send Campoli. By misusing his funds in this way, Snow will have a difficult time adding anyone before the season starts b/c that would highlight for the world to see that Snow did not plan intelligently. This is because anyone that the Isles sign now would bump off someone that they had signed to play this season. But does that mean Snow should sit on his $10 million? No!
My solution: make a smart trade before the season starts, possibly Campoli.
Question: Would the money be saved for a trade deadline acquisition? If we picked someone up (say for a draft pick), do we then have to pick up the remainder of his salary or is he already paid for the year by his previous team?
Because, if not, why wouldn't a team spend to the cap (the money can't be carried over)? Unless it's to save the owner money.
I feel like I should know this, but I don't.
Please don't revoke my posting privliges for being a dumbass:)
-Frank
Frank, You're not a dumbass. Pro sports teams now have "Cap Consultants" because the GM's can't understand their leagues own rules.
The team that acquires a player at the trade deadline is responsible for the remainder of his salary. However, because the deadline is so close to the end of the season, it's only about a fourth of the whole seasons salary.
In other words, holding onto 10 million would translate into 40 million worth of full season salary.
So, it would appear that your second option of saving the owners money is closer to the truth.....Bill
That is exactly correct. I believe saving $2-4 million sounds about reasonable for a team looking to make a HUGE splash at the trading deadline. Most teams who are really trying to win it all have spent almost to the cap. The Isles have at least $6 million they should have spent on quality players but are now sitting on.
Currently, there is no one left to sign. Looking back, I'm sure Snow wishes he would have shelled out the extra bucks for Hannan or Priessing, etc.
Justin & Bill,
Agreed. There were some non-blockbuster names out there we could have locked up for 4 yrs that would have made us all very happy.
But, as has been harped upon for the last few months now, the Island is simply not an attractive place to play. Snow realizes this, having witnessed the mass exodus that occurred at the beginning of July. I'm going to give Snow the benefit of the doubt here on this one. Knowing the unattractiveness of the Island for FAs right now, he went after a few big names in an attempt for a quick-fix, likely planning to then go after the 'smaller fish' that remained. That plan clearly didn't work, and caused even more embarrassment in the subsequent weeks when it was leaked some of these players (Drury, Smyth) took lesser salaries to play elsewhere. Yikes, the island must be a horrible place to play, huh.
When that happened, Snow had to evaluate. Do you overpay the market value for a Hannan or Preissing (still available at that time), tying your hands for years to come with a player who is no doubt solid, but not going to win a cup? Or do you save some dough, sign some players who have something to prove and who fit the mold of the team vision (scrappy, tenacious and fast-which I'm very excited about btw)? I don't care about how much money we're under the cap, I only care if we produce, and prove all the analysts wrong. If we can do that (and I honestly think we will), the Island will slowly (SLOWLY) become an attractive place to play. Not sure that pushing our way to the cap ceiling would accomplish this goal any better than the team we have right now, and we still have funds left over for next year and the year after, when a lot of new Hannans and Preissings (and maybe even better Okposos) will be around.
I don't know why so many people are worried about the 'cap'. Is there ANY relationship between cap space and relative playoff success? I'm not too sure. Look at the pre-salary cap teams that were successful..sure they had expensive players on the team, but they were internally developed, and signed long-term. Rangers, Leafs, Dallas, Ottawa- in my opinion Exhibit A for taking a few years off to rebuild both talent-wise, and reputation-wise, across the NHL. Let Wang keep his money, build a new stadium, and let the hard working players win over the rest of the league, and watch the Smyths, Drurys, and Briere's of 2010 sign with the Isles.
That being said, the next month can not go quickly enough. Lets get this season started!!!
NYISLES, Sorry, but I have to disagree. The Island in not an attractive place to play because it appears to be viewed as a "turnstyle" franchise. Every year there is a constant turnover of players, either through trades (Milbury) of losing free agents (Snow).
No matter how you want to slice it, this is poor management. If Snow wanted to build this franchise into an attractive place to play, he should have shown some committment to players like Preissing or Hannan. Four year deals would have shown other players that he was serious about building a team.
Instead, he threw one year deals at leftovers and retreads. So what happens again next year? The entire roster will turn over again.
This is shortsighted foolishness and every player and their agents know it.
As for not spending the cap limit, there is no excuse for that. Right now, Snow could add a player that would improve the team defensivly, yet he is reluctant to spend the money. Why? And don't give me that nonsense about "fiscal responsibilities." The only responsibility a team should have is to the fans who are paying silly ticket prices to watch a second rate team.
And lastly, you can forget about signing free agents next year or any year after that. If you follow any of the other hockey blogs, you will see that other teams are locking up players long term BEFORE they hit free agency. This is a growing trend in the NHL and Snow is way too slow to recognize it.
You state that the good teams were built internally. I agree, but Snow keeps dealing away all of our prospects and we are stuck with a coach who just will not give young players a chance. So, who do we build with?
This franchise is in disaster mode, and unless something changes, it will be for the foreseeable future....Bill
Bill,
I hear your comments, and we've definitely had this conversation before, so we'll just have to wait n' see. Either way, I know both of us are hoping for the best, and thats all that really matters...man I'm excited.
Reading reports from day 1- what do you all think of the Sim-Silly-Hunter line? The talk is they would see most time against the opp's top line. I like the idea because they're all solid 2-way players, can bang, and Silly will win 75% of face-offs again. However, I don't like the idea because Silly is only getting older (and slower), and Hunter (I feel) may be getting pigeon holed into this role, when he showed he has goal-scoring ability. If these guys can shut down a Jagr-Drury-anyone else line, I'll be thrilled. But I'd love to see Hunter on another line with some playmakers once in a while. Park him in front of the net, and get pucks to him. On a checking line role, he hits, plays D, and still is a threat to counter- which is great. But on the O line, he would be given a lot more leeway playing aggressively, which could turn into a lot of goals. I sort of see him as a Smyth-type player, with better wheels (i.e. doesn't look like he's gonna fall over every time he skates).
Any thoughts?
NYISLES, Yes. Dump Hilert and replace him with Tambellini. He has speed and playmaking ability and would greatly increase Hunter production around the net.
The solution is so obvious that Nolan will never do it.....Bill
Although the final line combinations aren't set yet, it looks like Snolan has made up their mind about the forwards on the roster.
Tank, Comrie, Guerin.
Tambellini, Vasicek, Satan.
Sim, Sillinger, Hunter.
Simon, Park, Bergenheim.
Bates and Hilbert will be waived (no one will claim them), and sent down to Bridgeport. Comeau will be first on the call-up-list, with Nielsen second.
To me this is all good. The checking line I like especially. I've been watching the scrimmages on ITV, and I think Sim can become a pesty player which will complement Hunter and Sillinger. There's plenty of scoring ability on this line, just check Sillingers stats from last year, and we know all about Hunter. These guys have the ability not only to keep the other team from scoring, but also to keep the puck in the offensive zone.
My questionmark will be placed on the second line. Vasicek must step up and provide scoring. Otherwise the first line will be hit hard by opposing teams. Satan must deliver in his contract year, and Tambellini must show his true potential. Did anyone hear 25+ goals from him?
I guess I can see for myself on October 18th when Islanders hit the ice at the Verizon center vs. the Capitals. Yep, that's right, I'm coming over to watch hockey (and other stuff of course). Anyone on this blog planning ön going down for the game? (A bit early to tell maybe..)
A few weeks ago we were discussing the issue of Hunter not signing a lengthy extension this summer w/ the isles- instead going for the 1 year contract. Mike Fisher (Sens) just signed a 5 year extension w/ them today, and it got me thinking. We all blamed Snow for not offering a longer deal for Hunter...but what if it was the other way around? What if Hunter didn't want to stay? Play one year and sign a 5 yr contract somewhere else....I hate to think of it.
It seems like players all have the upper hand with the Isles when bargaining contract terms. What is it going to take to change this trend? Can anyone think of some reason not to think this way about Hunter?
Hey! I have been pointing out all along that the teams are locking up their core players and that there will be no real quality free agents in 2008.
If we fans see this, why can't the guy pretending to be the GM grasp this fact.
Hunter will have plenty of teams calling him once this season is over, and he will walk away as many others have done in the past.
Why stay with an organization that has no committment to it's players and runs a revolving door franchise.
Players like Hunter are competitive by nature and want to win. He will take his 20-25 goals, great hitting game and desire to win and move on to a team that appreciates what he is capable of.
And Garth Snow will still be sitting in his office counting his 10 million dollar cap space.....Bill
So what do we do? Or rather, what can Snow do? Lets say he wants to change, right? From today forward, he decides he no longer wants to run that type of team, and needs to show commitment. What can he do now? How does he change perceptions among FAs and current players that the Isles are committed?
I mean, if we think Hunter has planned all along to test the FA waters at the end of this year, and didn't want to sign anything more than 1 year to begin with, what can Snow do? Blow him away with an offer? no, thats not smart- Hunter is good, but 25 goals ain't gonna win the cup. I have to wonder how he plans on balancing fiscal responsibility (not only to Wang, but to building a complete and well-rounded team), and showing commitment to players. Remember, just because Snow offers big money, doesn't mean people will come/stay.
Any thoughts for Snow to move forward? (maybe Snow reads this blog...)
Does DP change his pads every season? Ahh, whatever happened to the good ol' days when guys NEVER changed pads. Remember Arturs Irbe? The guy was sewing his pads in between games during the finals because he'd been wearing them since he was a teenager... Anyway, I like the new DP look- can't tell the brand though from the small itv screen
NYISLES "What can Snow do?"
Get off his ass and sign Hunter for four years just like other GM's are doing. He doesn't have to "blow Hunter away", just pay him fair market value.
This nonsense of year to year contacts has made this franchise into a joke. How many guys on this team can walk after the season?
14 or 15? This is a ridiculous position to be in. Show me any other sports franchise that is in this shape.
You can't, because there is none.
What Snow can do right now is sign some players (besides Hilbert) to 3 or 4 year deals and show the rest of the league that he is committed to building a team. Not just playing hockey's version musical chairs.........Bill
PS FISCAL RSPONSIBILITY is first and foremost to the people who buy tickets.....Bill
It's hard to keep fans interested and passionate in and about a team that constantly is changing faces. The generic Islander fan is likely to lose his favorite player within a year or two. It's one of the main reasons why I personally cannot get myself to buy a jersey. My Salo, Palffy, and Luongo jerseys still hang in my closet accumulating dust.
Then again, how many players on the Isles roster do you want locked up long term? I don't think Hunter is a make or break player, so the thought of him walking isn't that horrifying. He's a very solid player, but easily replaceable.
Here is my brief list of players I would lock up for the long term...
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Mike Comrie (good feeling about him)
Jeff Tambellini
Snow has resisted because he know's he doesn't have that much talent.
Justin, Easily replaceable by who?
Averages more than 20 goals per season.
Finishes in the top in hits.
Kills penalties and is generally injury free.
Is actually one of the longest Islanders in tenure.
Besides, how much would he cost?
1.75 to 2 million per year for four years is about right. I would go 8 million for 4 years to tie him up. Not exactly a budget breaker. Watch how many teams bid for him should he go free agent.
Signing Hunter to a long term deal would go a long way with the fans and other players in the league.
It would at least show a committment to something......Bill
Justin & Bill-
Like all the players mentioned for long term. Add Martinek on there, as well as Vasicek, and Ruslan. Martinek won't be injured as much as he has been. His injuries were accidents, not so much lack of conditioning or overall 'weakness'- every player in the league would have broken a leg on that hit last season for instance. The other guys- sign em long term. they weren't expensive for this one year, and they wouldn't be expensive for 4 years either. And, they're young, play smash-mouth hockey, and have shown high potential. If you get those guys at a good price, sign them.
That said, it doesn't address the fact that none of these guys (hunter included) apparently wanted to sign long term. So what is snow to do? where does he start? If he can't start with the guys mentioned, what CAN he do? My hope is that Nolan builds a team that has the chemistry everyone wants to be part of. Thats the only hope. Other players will see that when playing against the Isles, the word will spread, and the current shorter term players (e.g. Comrie) will be happy to re-up with a positive team.
Hopefully, thats whats going on. Yashin was no where near the type of leader who could start that, but from what I've heard (and seen), Guerin is looking good. His heart is as big as anyones, and he leads by example, on and off the ice. Add DP, Witt, Sillinger and the young guys, and hopefully the players start having fun, winning, and wanting to stay.
It's going to cost more that $8m/4 years. Mike Fisher is a similar player and he just signed a $21m/5 year deal (which I think is nuts). It also makes me wonder how they'll get Spezza, Heatley and Redden signed. As for core players, right now I'd say:
Tambellini
Bergenheim
Gervais
Martinek
Bergeron
Hunter
I think Hunter is easily replaceable, but is a fan favorite. It would go along way with the fans if he was signed long term.
Shink and Justin Again I ask, by who?
As you stated, Fisher is a similar player and look what he got. So, what does that tell you?
Both Hunter and his agent expressed interest in signing a long term deal. As he has so done often, Snow attempted to low ball Hunter and didn't get it done.
Hunter is exactly the type player the Isles should be locking up long term.
Keep counting that 10 million, Garth.......Bill
Looks like we're going with what could be the opening-day lineup tonight against Montreal. Interesting to note Campoli & Hilbert are not playing, in favor of guys like MacDonald, Dwyer, and Jackman.
DP looks to be starting as well- I'm interested in seeing how he looks in the first 'real' game against another team.
Go Isles!
I think Bergenheim could easily replace Hunter. There is no way I'd give him $4m/year.
These teams are going to be screwed when the cap either stays the same or goes down next season. I believe the only reason revenue was up, was due to the Canadian dollar's strength against the US dollar. If the Canadian dollar declines back to historical levels, the NHL's revenue is going to decline with it.
nyisle82 - I wouldn't worry too much about Campoli not being in the lineup. He's played the last two days. He and Vasicek are getting a rest. I think Hilbert has played himself down to Bridgeport.
Shinkdew- I agree about Hilbert.
It might do him well though. It could have been lack of confidence, seeing all the new names brought in, hearing his name in the papers/online re: being on the cusp of getting sent down, and after him hitting 30,000 posts last season and all.
I think (hope) playing in Bridgeport will allow him to rebuild the confidence, and hopefully regain some scoring touch.
Dunno why I have a 'soft spot' for him, but I want to see him do well. Of course I'd rather see us win games, so send him away if necessary...
Shink And who replaces Bergy?
This is exactly the thinking that has led to the revolving door franchise.
In effect you would rather have 10 million "cap space" than pay Hunter what he is worth?
You have to start building a team somewhere. Hunter is young , durable and not fabulously expensive. Pay the man.
Shink, you equate Hunter with Fisher. Ottawa sees fit to pay Fisher to keep him. Which franchise has been more successful
Ottawa or the Isles over the last 10 years? Ottawa still has to pay Spezza, Heatley and Redden and yet they spent the money to keep Fisher. Why?
On the other hand the Islanders have no one to pay because they have no stars and yet they can't get a deal done with a solid core player. But we 10 million lying around.
What happened to the promise to spend right up to the salary cap?
And don't forget we are paying Yashin not to play, so his money is not being paid to current players. Which means that salaries are really 13 million under the cap.
Hunter may not be the answer to winning the Cup, but he is a building block for the future and a solid second line player. He has proved himself three straight seasons now.
I have seen every game Bergy has ever played in the NHL and so far he has shown me nothing. He also has been nothing but a headache for this franchise since day one.
When he has 3 straight 20+ goals seasons then we'll talk. Until then, go with the proven player.
And remember this. It's not your money. The Islanders are not refunding ticket prices because they are 10 million under the cap.
All it means is that your are paying the same price to watch an inferior product...............Bill
Bill,
Give me a contract that you would offer Hunter. At first you stated what $8-9 million for four years. You know that wont get it done so I would like your take on what is fair value...
Hunter is the perfect building block player, like you said, but the Isles have bigger troubles than keeping Hunter. As you have pointed out, the Isles are $10 million or so under the cap and will have way too many UFAs at the end of this season. Where will this lead us? Probably to an offseaon turnover, where the best free agents will have already signed, and more than enough money to spend on absolutely no one. This team needs some core identifiable players, and from what I'm hearing about Comrie, I hope Snow sits down at some point this season and offers Mike a 5 year deal. The same for Bergeron. He will be cheap and could stabalize the powerplay for years to come. I would love Hunter locked up for 4-5 years, but in my opinion it's not that imminent. It all comes down to price; if he would sign for $10 million for 4 years, then Snow would be an idiot if he did not offer that contract. I fear it will take a lot more than that--more than Snow is willing to spend.
You can replace Bergenheim with Bootland or Colliton. Hunter is not a second line player, he's a career checking line player, and you don't pay checking line players $4m/year. Hunter has scored 20 goals twice, why would Bergy need to put up three 20 goal seasons? Ottawa paid Fisher because they know they are probably going to lose Heatley and/or Redden. I don't ever recall anyone saying they were going to spend to the cap.
They have 10 UFAs next season, and most of them are "spare parts" as Bill likes to say. Half of them will probably be replaced with guys from Bridgeport. I'd rather they have $10m in cap space then handing out $4-5m to 20 goal scorers.
I have a feeling that if the season is progressing nicely we will see contract extensions given to players like Comrie, Vasicek, etc.
I also believe that many of the current NHL players were not signed to longer term deals because Snolan would like to get some our younger players an actual chance of making the roster in more of the near future as in next season.
Justin and I are working on our preseason piece which should be done soon.
shinkdew,
According to Bill, he would not rather have $10 million in cap space over a $4 million 20 goal scorer. I'm inclined to agree. So what if we would have overpaid for someone like Petr Sykora. We would have had an extra scoring winger, and it would not have cost us (the fans) a dime. The extra cap space signifies a lost opportunity. We can boast about having the room to acquire a big name at the deadline, but the truth is we have the space because Snow misjudged the market. He undervalued the contracts that Kozlov, Blake, & Poti were going to get (and the rest of the UFA core). Now I'm not saying that I would have wanted those players for the prices they signed for, but there were many other reasoanbly priced scoring wingers that went for a reasonable price, like Sykora.
Sink, Hunter has scored 61 goals in 3 full seasons. That's 20 goals a season. He has also only missed 10 games over that span playing 77, 82 and 77 games.
In my opinion he is not a checking winger. He should be a second line player and would have many more points had he not been stuck with Stone Hands Hilbert all season.
Name any other team that has 20 goal a season 3 rd line players. Oh, that guy Gomez, he got 13 goals last year. Is he a checking line player, too?
As for 4 million per season, you said that, not me. I said that 8 million over 4 years would be fair.
That works out to 2 million per.
Hunters arbitration ruling was for 1.75 this season. Maybe 8 is too low, but surly not more than 10 would be about right. Thats still 2.5 per season. Again, not a backbreaker.
I see Hunter as young player with lots of room to improve. Towards the end of the season he was deflecting pucks on net with regularity a la Mark Parrish. He will only get better. And if he played with Tambellini he would score 30 goals.
Can you please explain why you would rather have 10 million in cap space than players? How does that benefit the fans or the team?
As for spending the full cap amount on salaries go back and read Snow's interviews before the free agency period.....Bill
Bergy
46 games 5 goals -15 rating.
Hunters replacement. Hah!...Bill
Mike Fisher
Discounting the 2003-2004 season which he only played 24 games.
02-03 74 games 18 goals
05-06 68 games 22 goals
06-07 68 games 22 goals
Averages a bit over 20 goals a season. Missed an average of 12 games per season (to Hunters 3 games per season).
And yet the Eastern Conf. Champions felt he was worth resigning long term.
Wake up, Snow.......Bill
When you put it like that, it's hard not to agree.
Fisher is also 3 years younger, and has scored more points than Hunter. And unlike Hunter, his goal/point production has gone up as his career has progressed. Hunter has never scored as many goals or points as his rookie year. If you want to give a 35 point scorer $4m, that's great.
Shink why do you keep saying 4 million dollars? Hunter never asked for that. He asked for 2 million. I am sure that the Isles could get it done in the area of 10 million for four years.
As to you points:
Hunter is still a young player.
Fisher plays on a MUCH better team.
Fisher gets hurt a lot. Hunter is very durable.
And we have the money to spend. You act like it's your money....Bill
If it's $10/4 years, I'll take it. I'm pretty sure he'll test the FA market, he'd be crazy not to. Unless, they've already agreed to a deal, and are waiting to sign it. Do you know how long he was asking for? I have a feeling he wanted 5 years, and they offered him 3 years.
I know it's not my money, but I'm tired of seeing these ham and eggers getting big contracts. The Gomez and Drury contracts were ludicrous. It's bad for the NHL, and if it keeps going, most of the small market teams are going to go under. We are pretty much back where we were before the lockout.
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